crumb too hard

Hi Chaps
I've been making a wholemeal/white loaf with seeds in my breadmaker for
a while now and wondered what I could add to soften the internal crumb a
bit. It comes out initially ok but stales very quickly.

I use honey,olive oil salt and a little vitamin c powder and mostly
highish gluten bread flours.

would an egg or some milk help with this? if so how much to add?

I've been trying to research but not found anything particularly helpful
yet.

dedics

Dick Margulis wrote:

This is my recipe:

4cups flour: 1 white, 2 granary style and 1 wholemeal (extra seeds 1/4 cup)

1 1/2 cups water (adjusted so the dough ball is elastic and smooth, not
sticky ) I usually need to add maybe a teaspoon or two extra flour to
correct if necessary that is usually not needed though.

1 1/2 tablespoons each of olive oil and honey

1 tsp salt
1/4 tsp vit c powder

and 2 tsp quick acting yeast.

I have a machine where you can program all the stages individually and I
copied the turbo cycle from my previous breadmaker which worked
successfully with the above quantities)

I use a turbo setting ie short initial rise and longer final rise (about
60 mins) but I do allow a 20 min preheat to let everything settle to the
right temperature.

The bread has always been quick to stale even if you leave it overnight
before you cut it. Fortunately it doesn't last very long before we've
eaten it all either.

It makes very crisp toast even when fresh, which I notice doesn't happen
with the shop bought equivalent. (I'm talking waitrose bakery granary
loaf here, not mother's pride rubbish...)

any suggestions?

dedics

Ian & Hilda Dedic wrote:

W-a-a-a-y too much vitamin C. I use the tiniest pinch for a recipe using
8-9 cups of flour. Hardly a bit between the thumb and forefinger. With
those types flour, you would be much better served to add gluten
powder/flour. Ask Dick to explain to you the process of making gluten
flour. In using gluten flour, you would use approximately a teaspoon for
your amount of flour. If you use more, the dough will become gluey and
unpleasant to smell and taste. The following is a contribution to this
group from Roy Basan and Commercial/Industrial baker regarding vitamin C. I
assume that you are using pure vitamin C (ascorbic acid) (nothing added)
rather than a health food supplement.
"In normal bread processing operation, the vitamin C acts as gluten
stabilizer (seldom as yeast nutrient) improving the quality of the
bread.However if used in excess it will cause the dough to collapse
after baking and the internal appearance of the bread will be
uneven,and there is a presence of large holes.Besides the crust
appears thicker and bread is more chewy to eat and had a harsh
texture.
If these question is related to the mechanism of the ascorbic acid
reaction in the dough.Let me explain it this way-the vitamin C acts on
the gluten through oxidation(strengtening of gluten fibrils)
chemically, by first the reduction of these ascorbic acid to
dehydroascorbic acid which is responsible for the improving effect by
its reaction of the exposed sulfur-hydrogen (thiol) containing
chemical bonds found in the gluten protein,binding/splicing the
separate gluten strands together(through removal of the
hydrogen(oxidation) and joining of the adjacent sulfur atoms(forming
the disulfide bonds).The result will be strong gluten network that
can entrap more effectively the fermentation gases responsible for
bread volume,as well as maintain its stability until the gluten
protein are denatured by heat during baking in the oven.

Roy



Janet

"

"Janet Bostwick" <[Only registered users can see links. ]> wrote in
news:[Only registered users can see links. ]:


The proper amount of Vit C was given in one of my books as about a pinch
per 100 pounds of flour.

Barry

Barry Harmon wrote:


Practically homeopathic dilution...

"Dick Margulis" <[Only registered users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users can see links. ] m...

....


Granary 'style' flour ('Granary is a trade name so can't be used by anyone
other than the owner of the name!) is flour which contains a proportion of
malted wheat grains.

I used to use it a lot years ago but found that the crumb became dry so I
stopped - there are so many types of bread to try that we don't miss it.

I don't know why the OP is using honey or vitamin C at all, they're not
necessary, but I've no idea if they'd impact on the problem and I can't
suggest any way of avoiding the problem.


....


I've no idea what Waitrose bakery 'granary' is either, never bought it, but
those few loaves of any kind I have bought from Waitrose - or anywhere else,
come to that, are too soft - moist - for my liking. If the OPO is making a
direct comparison between the home baked loaf and commercial bread that
could be the answer to the ''drying' problem, all commercial breads use more
liquid than we do, on the whole. Commercial machinery can cope with a softer
dough. As for 'Mothers Pride', it's made using the Chorleywood process which
is, as Elizabeth David said, "a way of making water stand up."

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:
I use honey because my original starting point was a honey-whole wheat
loaf, I don't like sweet bread and all the loaf recipes which come with
the machines seem to use masses of sugar and/or honey which doesn't all
disappear.

I might try Dick's extra salt idea, but would I have to increase the
yeast or sugar to compensate?

The vitamin c was because we have very hard water and I was told that
yeast works better in a more ph neutral liquid, which is why you
sometimes see lemon juice added in some recipes.

I totally agree about the mothers pride and chorleywood process comment.



dedics

Janet Bostwick wrote:
wow! That's very useful and interesting, I'll lay off the vit c and see
what happens.

It's not easy to get hold of gluten flour in the UK, Most flours for
breadmaking are sold as strong flour 12% or higher protein content,

Thanks

dedics

Dave Bell wrote:


aha! so maybe I ought to chant "please be soft"three times (In Latin ,of
course) whilst turning widdershins with a pointy hat on!

(Sorry ,I've been reading Terry Pratchett books again!) :-)

dedics

everyone says breadmaking is magic don't they?

Barry Harmon wrote:
snip
snip
rest of recipe snipped to get to the point
snip
snip



I knew it was something extraordinary like that, but again was just to lazy
to get up and look it up. Thanks for being my research partner;o}
Janet